Talk: Touhou Wiki/Archive 4

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Copyright Violations

It has come to my attention that on this very wiki, there exist many examples of grave copyright violation, in direct violation of Wikia community guidelines as seen here: http://www.wikia.com/Licensing. I will make a brief listing here:

1) Text appropriated directly from official print works and other copyrighted sources. Includes scenarios from games, lyrics, omake.txt, PMiss, Grimoire of Marisa, etc. While summaries are okay, and small text excerpts are sometimes covered under fair use, the wholesale reprint of text from, for instance, Curiosities of Lotus Asia, should not be tolerated. Thus, any copyrighted text that doesn't fall under fair use on this wiki (read: the official print works hosted on here) should be removed - that includes both the original Japanese and the English translation (the latter is debatable though). Additionally, any external links to direct downloads (on Mediafire, for instance) will have to be removed. 2) Game patches - Patches designed to modify the game in any way, including adding translations. Includes all English patches for official games as well as English patches for doujin works. Although we do not provide links to full game downloads, we do provide links to English patches and the like. However, in terms of copyright violation, distributing a game patch is an unambiguous copyright violations, as the copyright owner has the sole right over translations and distribution. Whether or not the English patches may provide a wider audience for the copyright owner is irrelevant, as this is for the owner, and only the owner to decide. As such, any links to game patches should also be removed. 3)Scanlations - Manga/doujinshi with English text added onto them. Includes Strange and Bright Nature Deity, everything in the Comic section, etc. Unambiguous copyright violation. Any links to fully scanlated comic downloads will have to go, translated or not. We also have a few raw unaltered Japanese scans (some from Oriental Sacred Place for instance) that we won't be able to delete (as there are no admins), but we can upload blank files over those. 4) Subs - Video (copyrighted, sold) with subtitles. If we have any links to these, they have to go.

You may choose to argue any of the points above, but quoth Wikia, "Work which you do not hold the copyright to, or which is not available under this license, should not be added to Wikia." Most of the above does not fall under fair use. It has to go.

The fact that material may not be hosted on Wikia and is widely available on the Internet is irrelevant. The above are direct violations of copyright law and Wikia policy. If Wikia is to set a good example (not to mention abide by the law), we are going to have to axe everything that violates copyright. I'd hate for Wikia to get hit by a lawsuit. I believe Wikia should set a good example, acting as a shining beacon of ethics and morality, in contrast to the dirty pirates found on the Internet. This isn't 4chan, after all. It's a reputable Web 2.0 company. We should follow ethics and comply with the law.

Summary: Regardless of material being freely available on the Internet, Wikia should be not engaging in questionably legal activities that infringe on copyright. It is piracy, it is not fair use, and it is illegal. Pirates who want their comics can go look elsewhere. No one would ask for game downloads on shrinemaiden. No one should ask for copyrighted material here.

The old community has gone. It's time to take this wiki into a new era and make Touhou Wikia a better place, one that isn't tarnished with the spectre of copyright violation! If I do not receive any viable arguments to the contrary, I will start to remove copyright violations from this site, and any users who restore copyrighted content will be reported to Wikia staff for repeated copyvio. Have a nice day. Pufferfish101 03:16, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Interesting points you bring up! I agree that this is a potential issue to the health of the wiki and should be dealt with, with all deliberate speed. I don't think everything listed is a copyright violation and things need to be reviewed on a case by case basis.

Instead of waiting for a mass deletion of materials one member views as copyright infringement and someone else restoring these articles to involve the Wikia staff, I went ahead and sent them an e-mail regarding this post and details relating to the current trouble this particular wiki has undergone recently. That way they understand that a lot of work needs to be done here and that we are working as fast as possible to avoid copyright infringement. I think it would be best if we work directly with the Wikia staff to determine what violates copyright and what doesn't, instead of deleting everything now and trying to restore it later.

With the problems of so many deleted articles in the wiki and this additional new problem, I think that we should consider an extended review period before starting the deletion of copyrighted content. People can start purposing articles for deletion now, and I will suggest that the review period should be two weeks before we start actually editing content. At that time, articles should be edited to remove copyrighted content, not entirely deleted. If anyone thinks it should be longer or shorter, please state so and explain why.

I think by working together we can make this wiki strong, after all we are all just Touhou fans here.VS3025 06:17, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Oh wow, I didn't actually expect a response from anyone. But yes, your method is better. There should probably be a template made for this purpose, similar to the ones they use on Wikipedia. Pufferfish101 09:17, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

How many templates would you need? One for the actually Copyright review, maybe another for just a portion of the page being copyrighted (unless every page with links and copyright problems is a full page), there's already a speedy deleted pages template.

We'd only need one template, but the speedy deletion template is inadequate, as it doesn't explain why the content was removed. The template would be used as such: remove all the content, and then slap the page with a template so that people know where the page has gone. I can start today; I'll send a notice to the Wikia moderators first so they know what I'm doing. Note that Wikia policy, as on Wikipedia, dictates that contested material must be taken down before any discussion, after which it may be restored upon community agreement. "Let's wait to removed the material until a consensus is reached" is an invalid argument. I am anticipating trolls and multis to come and try to keep their pirated material though, so I will make sure to notify Sarah Manley and co. if anyone tries to add back copyrighted material before consensus is reached to restore it (unless the material is a blatant copyvio, in which case no consensus is needed for permanent deletion).

Pufferfish101 18:00, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

I think that this process should be a little more delicate than "delete everything, put template up saying this page removed due to copyright infringement."

When possible, only the copyrighted materials should be removed (including links to copyrighted material hosted on other web pages). The remainder of the page should not be affected. When deleting copyrighted content, the user who does the deletion should also replace it with a summary whenever possible. As Pufferfish101 said "While summaries are okay, and small text excerpts are sometimes covered under fair use..." I think the goal of this part of the clean-up should be to remove any questionable content, while ensuring that the wiki remains at a high quality.

Also, when deleting content, it would be helpful if when you explain why it is being removed, you cite the copyright statute so we know why it is in violation (For example, this material was removed for being in violation of US Copyright section § 113.2b). If questionable material must be taken down then it needs to be established why the content is questionable as it is taken down, "because I said it is questionable" is not a valid reason. If there are lingering questions about this, I purpose we contact the Wikia Copyright Agent, Michael Davis, at copyright@wikia.com to figure out how we should approach this.

Although... I still believe we should put this off until we recover from the childish vandalism we have suffered. There are a lot of problems with the wiki right now and solving one problem at a time would be more efficient than splitting efforts among different things. However, if other users want to move ahead on this project, I don't see any problems.

In addition, I guess this finally settles the question of whether or not any links to the other wiki should remain on this one. As it itself is a host of copyrighted content, we would be remiss to link other users to it. Please do not create or restore links, as we would not want to be in violation of anything. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised Pufferfish101, who seems so gung-ho about this clean-up, would suggest "I'd argue that deleting links to the other wiki without restoring deleted content is, in fact, worse than just leaving the links there, since it leaves users with no way to get to the content at all." Do you want us to link to copyrighted content or not?

As a matter of fact, I think you are the troll, you are acting like a child, and you should move on and let the people who want to stay here stay here without interfering further. Stop treating your fellow Touhou fans like dirt because you have some sort of dispute with Wikia. It was made clear that people did not have to move if they didn't want to.

VS3025 19:40, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

You may think this copyright nonsense is silly, but that attitude is prevalent on the internet. I assure you this is quite serious. And as I have said before, a notice will have to be put up detailing why the material was removed.

"I think that this process should be a little more delicate than 'delete everything, put template up saying this page removed due to copyright infringement.'"

Delete everything? I think you're being just a little paranoid here. I'm talking about deleting copyrighted material here, and only the copyrighted material. For instance, all the Grimoire of Marisa pages would have to go. However, the portraits of Reimu on her page are fair use. Some of the quoted text below may not be, although I think it is. Listings of comics are fine, while links to their shares are not.

"I think the goal of this part of the clean-up should be to remove any questionable content, while ensuring that the wiki remains at a high quality."

Precisely.

If you really want to contact the Copyright agent, that is fine too. However, I think most of the examples I am talking about are unambiguous.

I can go ahead and move ahead with this project while you take care of the other one (I have no idea of telling which articles were blanked anyway) if that is your concern.

Regarding links to the other wiki, I have not created or restored any links since you started restoring articles (and I was not the person who created them in the first place). The few exceptions are my userpage (which links to my personal userpage on the other wiki and which I think I am allowed to have, as it is in userspace) and those links in the archive that you removed for some reason, but which should be restored for archival reasons. We do not want to censor connections to the other wiki, but we will not (from this point on) encourage users to go there as people have tried to do in the past.

"As a matter of fact, I'm surprised Pufferfish101, who seems so gung-ho about this clean-up, would suggest "I'd argue that deleting links to the other wiki without restoring deleted content is, in fact, worse than just leaving the links there, since it leaves users with no way to get to the content at all." Do you want us to link to copyrighted content or not?"

In fact, I was being a little too nice there and considering the users who might come here by Google. But copyright is copyright, and pirates are pirates. All those links at the tops of articles should be removed, post haste. Then the users who wanted to find information on Touhou will find a blank page, without any notice telling them why. But I suppose this is the legal way to do things. You seem to support it, so I support it as well.

"As a matter of fact, I think you are the troll, you are acting like a child, and you should move on and let the people who want to stay here stay here without interfering further. Stop treating your fellow Touhou fans like dirt because you have some sort of dispute with Wikia. It was made clear that people did not have to move if they didn't want to."

I think you've let the whole Wikia thing get to your head. Most of those who have moved have already moved, and all that conflict is now in the past; the few who have decided to stay have decided not to leave. It's quite sad that you call me a troll, when in fact I only want the best for this wiki. Can't I be a member of both wikis? Or is cohesiveness within the Touhou community not allowed? Is this why people from shrinemaiden/Doujinstyle/Lunatic Red never talk to each other?

I see that you have genuine concerns here, but I fear you might be obstructive out of the fear that this is some feud with Wikia. That is silly; do I have to have a feud with Wikia just because I support the new wiki? How's this for you - the same copyright discussion has been going on in the other wiki. There has been no consensus there, due to a lack of clear copyright policy. However, there is a clear copyright policy on Wikia. Thus, it should be followed. Pufferfish101 02:45, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Are we following the copyrights that were translated as well? And, the links.. I'm still taking down. One link is still enough. You are the only one who wants it and frankly... your opinion is very biased. I've looked at the other wiki and what's talked about, but this is not the other wiki and all those other people left. If you're going to be doing something, then do it to better this wiki without the other one in mind. Fixing the site up copyright wise is very nice, but you don't seem to be going about it in a very good way. I'll make a template to label all the pages and add them to a category that lists them as violating copyright. Translated copyrights --Imanie 03:11, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

{{copyvio|<section>|<reason>}} template.

Translations can be debated. On the one hand, they are not the original material. On the other hand, it is a direct derivative from the original material, one that follows it very closely. The copyright person can get on that, if we ask him.

"One link is still enough." I'm not sure what you are talking about. There are no links on the front page anywhere on the wiki, and the links on the article pages will be taken down soon, as they should be. However, past discussion is still past discussion. No one is going to see those links, as they have been archived. But altering a record of conversation is silly. I can get Wikia staff to intervene and impose a compromise if you wish, as they have the final say.

I may come about as a bit harsh and overbearing, but that's the way it is, really. I'll admit, I was more than a bit obnoxious in my first post, but the points I made were based on fact. I'm not trying to gut this wiki, really! All the core material will still be here - the characters pages, gameplay pages, lyrics, etc. I may be biased, but copyright violations are copyright violations, regardless of whoever points them out. I only brought up the discussion on the other wiki to explain why I suddenly brought up this issue here. And in any case, this copyright discussion does not pertain to the other wiki, but to Wikia and its guidelines and policies.

Nice start on the template though. I don't think we will need it for all the pages (for instance, we wouldn't necessarily use it on a page where a small section was taken out) but it will be used primarily for the pages where the entire text is copyrighted.

Pufferfish101 04:29, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

PS by "few who have decided to stay", pufferfish means the 2 autistic kids who thought it would be a good idea to ignore a decision agreed upon by the entire community. That is, if it's not a retard using multiple accounts. Master Bigode 19:20, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

In regard to translation copyright, § 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works states that derivative works belong to the author, so I think all of the translations of printed works fall under that. The printed works section should probably be reformatted to contain a listing of printed works and a summary of their contents, but they can't be the straight rips the way are right now.

While links to english patches should be removed, it is still fine to acknowledge their existence. We can't provide links to copyrighted content, but we aren't responsible if someone knows there is a patch and does a google search for it.

Scenario translations are a little more questionable. Let me know what you guys think.

VS3025 21:08, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it would be nice if we could replace the translated printed works with English summaries, which are noticeably lacking (not everyone has the time to read through walls of text).

Agree with your stance on English patches.

Scenarios are indeed questionable. Nothing in Zun's statement explicitly forbids them. I think they might be okay (aren't they just transcripts of the game text?) but we could always remove the Japanese original if anyone has a concern with it - the English can probably stay. If they are taken from the game files, that is another matter though, and they should probably be removed. Pufferfish101 22:09, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

In other words, "Let's build a wiki with the same information that the new host has and will have in the future, but without the stuff that we think shouldn't be on there. Most of the members that regularly contributed to this wiki moved to the new host, but that doesn't matter. Also, everyone should stay here because it's better than the new host." Yeah, sure. Drake Irving 07:17, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Reinventing the wiki

I think that we should have a new place to talk about the things on the wiki, like by using the forum or blogs on the wiki, so different subjects can get the air time they deserve. This is also an easy way to get people to notice topics on the front page, because those two can be put on the front page to show their topics, etc. I also think that we need a new administrator who is all for this wiki and knows about the things involving Touhou. Thatn way vandalism can more easily be rolled back and those people who vandalize can be given proper attention.

I think there should be a new layout/look for the wiki, involving a new background scheme and maybe new colors for the templates. Speaking of the templates, it would be cool if we could go through them and update them a little more to better suit the wikia looks. I think the front page should be redone in someway, maybe with images and things so they are more eyecatching.

I also think that we should re-add the wiki to some other external sites that were removed when other people decided to take them off after this one was heavily vandalized. --Imanie 20:07, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

As far as a new admin goes, I was looking over the policy for that a couple of days ago. I believe if there is no acting admin, someone can apply for it. If there is an administrator but they aren't taking a role in the wiki, they can be replaced after a 60 day period.

In regards to redesign, from the discussion i've read so far I feel like we have people who know HOW to do it (normally the hard part) but not exactly WHAT to do... haa... haa... but i'll wait to see what is purposed and then add what I can and help with the implementation. I can probably also do some images. VS3025 21:08, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

For your own mental health's sake, please stop fooling yourself. The links to this wiki weren't removed from other sites because of vandalism, they were replaced to links to the new wiki. You wonder why ? It's because the entire community is aware of the move and _agrees_ with it([1]), save for a few lost folks and some secondary fans. Master Bigode 20:20, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

I think you should apply to be an admin of this wiki, VS3025, you're very helpful. There is no admin here, and if he does come on, he's not helpful and has left with the other people, so 60 days shouldn't really count in this case. I can make a test front page if you want to see what I can make (one that uses templates and can easily be transcluded onto the main page when the time comes). But, MB, could you please stop trying to exact some type of revenge on this wiki and the people that stayed and leave? If there's nothing here, then why post to those that stayed? Everyone moved already :p --Imanie 21:13, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

The only reason I still patrol this wiki is to ensure that no corrupt scumbag will try to take it over. I am doing this not only as a favor to pooshlmer (one of the guys who helped make touhou popular in the west in the first place, mind you) but also as a favor to the community as a whole. By not following the talk page guidelines and trying to hide any evidence of the move, you and your sockpuppet are showing to be exactly the kind of person I don't want administrating this wiki. If you were up to good, you would try to change the theme of this wiki to something else instead of trying to directly compete with the new, community approved wiki. Competing with the new wiki wont bring people back. Master Bigode 21:46, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a big fan of using the forum or blogs (no one really sees those or cares about them). As far as reinventing goes, how about putting links to Let's Play videos on the front page so that beginners can get some gaming tips? Or maybe links to different Touhou blogs/fansites that otherwise wouldn't be seen? If we want to differentiate ourselves from the other wiki maybe we can get some fan content/contributions on the front page.

I agree that the design of this Wiki has a long way to go; it's currently pretty ugly (especially the blue background). It doesn't seem like there is anyone here who knows templates though...On a front page redesign, I will comment that the current minimalist design suits those with small monitors well.

On links to the wiki on other sites, I would like to comment that those links were removed before the wave of vandalism starts. In any case, I don't recommend trying to change those links, or you're going to be virtually asking the vandals to come back here again. If you want to try though, no one can stop you. Pufferfish101 21:56, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

If it really does come down to a vote for admin between the two of you, I would much rather prefer Imanie, seeing as she has a visible history editing (and administrating?) on Wikia, whereas VS3025 sounds like a typical alternate account (no offense, but it does) and does not have prior visible history. But really, seeing as you're both recently created accounts on this specific wiki, though, (in the past few weeks, in fact), I'm not sure either of you should be administator. However, if we can have a sort of "moderator" position that has specific powers against vandalism, I am for that. Pufferfish101 21:56, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

"Let's Play videos on the front page so that beginners can get some gaming tips? Or maybe links to different Touhou blogs/fansites that otherwise wouldn't be seen? If we want to differentiate ourselves from the other wiki maybe we can get some fan content/contributions on the front page." I like these ideas. There could be playthroughs/fansites of the (week/biweekly/month) as well as other fan contributions rotated on the front page. I think making this more active and encouraging people to get involved in ways beyond editing articles would make the site a lot more exciting.

We'll be implacable enemies on the background, though. I hate pure white sites with black text, the blue borders make looking at the screen and reading for extended periods of time easier on the eyes. This is obviously personal preference.

As far as administration goes, I'm certainly not volunteering for the job, it isn't my right to do such as thing as someone who was only a user and not a contributor in the past. I'm more of a worker bee type, I know how to do things, and if someone tells me what to do, I'll do them efficiently and correctly. I'm not a pro when it comes to web design, as I have only made a few pages in the past and I tend to lean towards functionality over appearance. But if no one volunteers, maybe we should have a team of admins so everyone works together. For example, having someone who worked on the wiki in the past working with people who are willing to bring it into the future would add a lot of credibility to our efforts.

I don't know how to convince you I am a unique individual, but I'm not that worried about it. All I can say is I've used this wiki for a long time as an anonymous user. But then when I tried to use it a couple days ago, as I said, the articles I was using were deleted, and I decided to start fixing them. That is really all there is to that story. If you want to know a little about me, I'm a high school Social Studies teacher who has to finish his master's thesis by May. I don't get trolled easily, because anything you can say over the internet doesn't come close to what my students do.

Our intentions should be to make this site a fun and unique place to visit. A wiki doesn't just have to be a repository of knowledge. But it isn't going to be an overnight change, everyone here has only so much time to give. People just assuming the worst about our intentions should actually give us a chance to do something first.

VS3025 23:00, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Hello, if there is a vote or a decision to elect new admins, I am happy to give you the rights, please let me know. --Sarah (help forum | blog) 21:32, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Imanie is a girl, just so you know >.> but I AM new to Touhou, as I said once. Helping out wikis helps me actually get to know the things I want to know :p My first edit might have been in a week or two's time, but I actually have been looking in on the wiki and reading some things for a short while, and from what VS3025 said, he has been a reader too.

I actually don't care when the links were removed, or what MB wants, honestly :/ because it's all being done to be confrontational. I have actually said that links on talk pages to the other wiki are fine (non intrusive), one link on the archive pages that I archived... is also fine o.o Pictures posted up specifically for the other wiki and links and templates made to vandalize this wiki (that you did make, MB, as seen by your contributions) are really not necessary.

Moderators who can ban vandals for a short time, undo large spans of edits from someone, protect certain heavily vandalized pages, etc. Would be nice. I am actually fairly ok with template writing and other things along those lines. I am not an artist though, so I can add a background or do a theme, but I would prefer it if someone gave me an idea of what type of background to use (made an image they wanted up) or anything.

The forum and the blogs that no one sees was why I put those up there. You can add both of those to the front page easily so people can see those first thing when they come to the wiki. Instead of this page being clutered full of two, or three different discussions, a forum (with threads made for that purpose) or a blog (sae thing) would be much more organized. With the forum or blog reel on the front page, people that come to the site could see that there was a new post and by whom, or on what day it was made, ore easily than this talk page which only shows the number of comments on the front page and isnt' even listed in community on the bar at top.

My vote on adminship still goes to V. --Imanie 22:42, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, sorry about that.e

As for the links issue...well I still disagree with you about the links in the archive, but I don't think edit warring is going to do anything, so I guess I'll defer to you for now. As for MB's images, they're in userspace where no one will see them and he is allowed to have them, so I don't think you should be image upload warring with him.

Anything would be better than the blue background we have right now. It hurts my eyes and is one of the reasons I cringe whenever I come here.

Good points with the forums/blogs. You'll need to unlock the front page for that though.

Pufferfish101 22:52, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

If anyone has an idea, I can try to add a look up. I can also start making template pages that house some of the things that are on the front page already and post the link here so everyone can see. I like to make things organized and try new organization techniques that I see on other wikis :3 I am even willing to make a test page so you can see the blog or forum idea look. I do think wikis should be fun, though :D --Imanie 00:48, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Never wrote/contributed anything in a wiki before, but as a long term and serious Touhou fan I thought I'd stop by to say good luck to, er, you two. Imanie and V. If Wikia does so insist that this wiki cannot be shut down as everyone (referring to the wider Touhou community itself) desires, then I hope you can do a good job of at least maintaining it as an archive. Whilst the existing Touhou community has moved on to it's own wiki (one where their contributions actually belong to them rather than corporate Wikia), this one continues to sit at the top of google searches and will attract new fans and curious others. So you see, your representing the entire of Touhou to all new fans to the community, and if you intend to, you had better do a good job.

That must sound harsh, but I mean it. I care deeply for Touhou, and very little for all the petty Wikia politics. All this is rather painful for me. So again, good luck, your holding something very precious to me.

(Edit) That is unless there actually is a way to close down this site. Whilst that may be wishful thinking, that is my obvious preference. Also my condolences to this Sarah person for getting stuck having to handle this mess in what must only be following protocol. I wish you could understand why this wiki only harms the community that originally made it. Somniloquence 04:07, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure new people can find the site just fine. Google searches by how man hits are given to something, which means that if this one stays at the top, then a lot of people who left are continuing to look back on this wiki and give it more popularity. I hope the other wiki does well, too. The two wikis could have actually served two difference purposes, one for more of the chatting side and one for more of the information, but I'm sure everyone already thought that through when they decided to pick up and move.

I do hope this wiki does continue to stay as a good (maybe 2nd great) wiki for Touhou, but it doesn't seem like a few people actually care or thought that through.

We aren't representing all the Touhou fans and the community, since you, yourself have said you all have moved. Even by google's standards: Wikipedia is the first link, ED is the second link, and tv tropes is the third, all of them with a reference to the other wiki.

If anyone does happen to come here, and the wiki is vandalized, what they will notice is that some people in the Touhou community are vengeful and hold grudges for no good reason against a company that's doing it's job and some people that enjoy Touhou as well. But that's what some people in the community that left want people to see, I suppose.

Good luck to those that were nice enough to leave this one alone and are doing your best job to create the best and most popular Touhou wiki on the net. --Imanie 05:41, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Man, I just hope the next vandal has something more creative to post. It is obnoxious to delete the same message 1000 times. Mix it up a little or something. VS3025 07:04, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

{{News}} Test news page for the looks :o --Imanie 04:54, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I like the look of it. It would be nice if those latest posts could be on the main page eventually. I'm not sure what everyone is envisioning right now but if we are going to make this more of a social/user content site than I can imagine a front page with recent blog/forum posts and only a few links to the most popular parts of the information database.

Also, I was thinking about some sort of podcast that could be done either bi-weekly/monthly/whenever. I did a quick search for one and I didn't see anyone doing anything like this. Anyone know if this sort of thing is already being done? I actually have experience with this, I worked on a project doing one for a presidential library, although my equipment isn't quite as nice as what they let me use. I don't know about streaming, but I have no problem with uploading an mp3 of it.

The format I was thinking of: A 15-30 minute show with a different topic each time. The first show would be about helping people get started with Touhou. Other shows might include analysis of different games. Talking about the music, print works, ect. Interviews with prominent people in the community, and whatever else. People could submit questions/comments to go over, as well.

I guess my overall question is... is the idea of a wiki based on social and user-submitted content the direction we want to take this?

If it is or we draw up an idea of what we want, we should draw up a vision statement so everyone knows exactly what we are trying to accomplish. VS3025 17:40, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be, my comment was more on keeping both wikis useful, because some other wikis have. I saw a wiki where the wikia site was the communit chatroom, and the other one was where they continued to host most of their information, so both wikis were useful and served different purposes. the blogs and forums on the front page was because the talk page is so hard to sift through after a ton of people comment already. There are like 4 topics on this page right now, each one with its own heading, and they are all about totally different things. My comment about the blog or forum aspect was that they could each be more easily seen (as shown by the template). I normally use the forum because it's smaller, however, blogs you can see a snippit of what's being talked about, the title, and the last person to post, but it takes up a little more room.

Most people, I have found out, don't actually go back to their old wikis and vandalize it, other people who aren't their main supporters do, and then their main supporters revert the edits because they don't want to be known for using sleazy tactics.

This wiki can surely stay as main place for information if we work hard enough to keep it that way. And I think we should :) Being a new community oriented and still informative place sounds fun. I don't know if we can do the whole podcast thing well enough, but you can set up rss feeds for people to get to.

It would be nice if this was a main site for legal, pertinent information on everything Touhou. With all the information we have on this site (or the front page, for that matter) we could either try to show it all in a more presentable fashion or condense it into something that works. Like featured articles, music pieces, etc. I know there are tutorials on how to play this game houesed somewhere in here, but there is no real category. We need better (or newer) categorization, I think. --Imanie 18:01, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I have a feeling we agree fundamentally, it should certainly still stay as a main place for information. I'm just saying it would be nice to have an extra dimension that makes our site unique. VS3025 18:23, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I think asking for this wiki to be the main site on everything Touhou would be asking a bit much, as it would require a working relationship between the Touhou community and Wikia that just doesn't exist, not to mention a league of willing active editors. That said, I think that this wiki can include a bunch of fan-based user material that simply has no place on the other wiki. "The idea of a wiki based on social and user-submitted content" - that's basically what I think this wiki should try to become. A community aggregator of legal user content, or something.

On podcasts...well, someone has to take the time to make them, and someone has to listen to them. I've never been a user of podcasts anyway, so I can't really comment on them. But I think maybe a weekly blog post with the same material might be effective, and you could put a link to the blog posts on the front page.

The thing about forums is that, well, there's just not the same sense of chronological order as with Wiki-style talk pages (and it's easy to archive!). Also, I like the streamlined text-only convo on talk pages more than a forum-style convo for wiki discussion; it's simpler and easier to scan. But anyway, forums are useful when newbies want to ask for help; I think that should be their main purpose. Pufferfish101 18:28, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Not trying to be condescending, but differentiate between "the main" and "a main" site for information. Despite what some people might believe, I (I won't speak for anyone else, but I think we are all actually on the same page here) have no grand illusion that this site is going to be the catch-all for Touhou, but when people bookmark pages in their "Touhou" folder, it would be nice if this was a site worth bookmarking next to The Touhou wiki, shrinemaiden, Gensokyo, ect. That is why I agree with you that making fan-based material a significant part of the wiki is a good idea. I actually have my own Touhou user created content (why I came here in the first place!), but I've only posted it on one board because there isn't a good place for it

As far as podcasting goes, I'm willing to take responsibility for doing that sort of thing. Like I said, i've done official "work" work with them in the past and it is a fun hobby. The reason I think Touhou should have one is because most other hobbies do and it helps make the hobby more mainstream (Oh, the horror!). I like baseball, I listen to the ESPN Baseball Tonight Podcast. I like Warhammer 40k, I listen to the WH40k podcast. I like games, so I listen to the 1Up podcast.. If people like Touhou, they should be able to listen to a Touhou podcast and have a chance to listen and contribute to discussion about their hobby, just like anything else. And if I make a pilot episode and maybe a few after that and people think it and or I am lame (entirely possible), it can be scrapped, but it is an idea for expanding the community.

Finally, I hope people can look at the discussion we are having and realize we are serious about making this something other than an identical wiki. I think we are heading in the right direction as far as discussing what we want done, I hope we can continue to do so maturely and thoughtfully. I feel we are close to having a solid basis for moving forward. VS3025 19:05, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I don't even see this as being a fanbased place since, as you said, the Touhou community has severed ties with Wikia. So that plan for everyone to actually use both wikis in a non-confrontational way was thrown out the window unless they all actually decide to play nice and maybe use both wikis in those ways (encyclopedia and fan-based).

I didn't think this would be the main Touhou site, since everyone keeps bringing up that the entire Touhou community has moved, but that shouldn't stop people that want to from adding to this one, making it better, etc.

In forums there is as much chronological order as in talk pages, the difference between them would be "All topics have their own separate space." Archiving forums isn't that hard either... it's probably easier, since all you have to do is move the entire page to a different space and it won't actually be used. You, at first, didn't like the forum or blog idea because it wasn't easily seen... but I've already proved that it's much easier to find new posts, edits, people names, etc. than it is on a talk page that SHOULD be about the main page instead of the entire wiki. It's actually more organized that way, which was my point.

This wiki is kinda unorganized, and it's hard to find the last post in something (unless I check recent activities) and then I have an idea where it is on this page. It's not user friendly, maybe editor friendly, but are we supposed to assume that everyone that visits this site and might want to comment is an editor? Wiki's oasis skin was made for visitors (I think) and was made to kind of make everything more streamlined and even as you move throughout all the wikis.he

My first idea for the front page was to have like.. a portal idea like on the Dragon Age wiki and the Assassin's Creed wiki so all the information already there can be placed in something that makes it more organized and makes the front page look clean, that way other information can be added in around it. --Imanie 20:06, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I think a portal idea like those pages would be a vast improvement over what we have now. If there is a way to make the editing more user friendly, I'm all for it, but I personally don't have any problems with it.

I'm trying not to bring up much about the "Touhou Community" and other wiki, but I'm also trying to step lightly because I don't want to redo 500 pages again. Just because the people who left think they represent the Touhou Community doesn't mean they do. I think we've had about 10-15 likes on the facebook counter since I started watching it (not too long ago), there is certainly people still checking out this site and we should try to make it as good as possible. I just happen to think that adding more fan-based things would make it better, whether it appeals or not to the people who left doesn't concern me in the least, but don't let them fool you into thinking they represent anyone. VS3025 20:24, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

So long as this site attempts to directly compete with the Touhou Wiki, it's not going to get very far. If you want to even attempt to restore a working relationship between the community at large and Wikia, you are going to need to be sufficiently different from Touhou Wiki. A name change would also be required. Kiefmaster99 20:21, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Well I'll just put you down in the "maybe" column for a podcast interview, then. VS3025 20:47, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Then I must decline. I was merely offering a suggestion. Kiefmaster99 20:53, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

"So long as this site attempts to directly compete with the Touhou Wiki, it's not going to get very far."

Yeah, wholly agree. The biggest thing keeping it alive so far is the people who don't know the difference between the two, and/or missed the news of the move (readers, not editors. I almost missed it myself). Particularly the ones who don't actively take part in the other common sites. These people will be wondering why the coverage has slowed down so much come the next Comiket or Reitaisai.

Since I mean, off the top of your head, what are the dates for the next Comiket convention or Reitaisai festival? Do you have good contacts over in Japan to help you cover it, and how many times have you visited either of the conventions? Who's responsible for keeping an eye on Zun's blog. Have you seen the doujin album list on this very wiki? Because that thing gets at least 10% bigger every year. Lots of work. Because that's what your up against I'm afraid.

Sorry for my tone again, I think I'm intending this as "constructive pessimism" or something. Just pointing out the challenge ahead. --Somniloquence 01:26, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Aside from that, a few people are not going to possibly have the effort to cover every fan game thing. Off the top of your head, do you have any idea how Aya should be used in Touhou Soccer? Do you know what you have to watch out for when fighting Maribel in Labyrinth of Touhou? (The strategy section for that part is completely wrong, BTW. I wrote it when I didn't know better, and I don't really feel like fixing it here) Do you know Satori's fighting style in Genius of Sappheiros, both as a boss and as a playable character?

If you still want to keep this site good for something other than sitting on top of a google search on "Touhou wiki", then you better figure out a direction for this wiki to take, and trying to make it an archive of information is NOT going to be the way to go. The people who left may not represent every single Touhou player/fan, but they represent practically everyone who actually obtain and process new information, and with the number of people who still edits this wiki less than two hands can count, you're not going to get anywhere. Heck, you're not going to even be able to spot out and fix less obvious vandalisms (which someone did on the SoEW script, BTW). Most people out there still don't hold a grudge against wikia (including me, as long as I still have my Monobook I'm not complaining), but they know that their efforts will be better spent updating a site with a healthy community rather than a stagnant site, especially if the latter is essentially a history of the former. You'll have to take it elsewhere or you'll never keep up. Have fun; I'll enjoy watching you guys work. RegalStar 01:58, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Did you fix the slight vandalism left behind? If not, that doesn't seem very helpful. Most of what was just said wasn't actually very helpful or constructive, to be honest. I still stick to what I've said about the other wiki being a lot more known, even to new people who are just getting into Touhou. It's on just about every sight listed, including this one. I also find it surprising to not know that this one was moving when it's listed on about every single page, and every person that posts is redirected to the other one. I find it very hard to believe that this one takes other people away from the other one or even competes in that realm. Before posting, please read all of what was said instead of trying to discourage people from doing something they want to do. This one honestly doesn't harm the other one in any way, except for housing a lot of the same information now. --Imanie 03:32, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

It's almost like they haven't read a single comment. Ironic, because this section is about making this site different. I did a page search for compete, competes, and competing, and the only people saying those words aren't the people working here.

You guys are 100 years too early to get an invitation to the podcast with this unbecoming conduct.VS3025 04:12, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Suit yourselves. This might be fun to watch. RegalStar 05:44, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

While this site still bears a resemblance to the Touhou Wiki's former self, regardless of what else you do, others are going to point that out and assume bad faith. As I'm sure you're aware of, this site was vandalized because of a) grievance against Wikia for not closing the website or b) continued resemblance of this site to Touhou Wiki. That being said, admittedly, the lock on the front page doesn't help, neither does the lack of adminship (both which have been discussed). Kiefmaster99 06:09, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

I-it's not like we wanted to be friends with you or anything... Y-YOU BAKA!!!! *runs off hiding face* VS3025 19:04, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism Recovery

I thought it might be helpful to have a section in regard to vandalism recovery.

As I said, I'll take care of restoring the old articles, but if at anytime someone else wants to get in on the fun, I figured they should know where I am working so they don't waste their time.

It is my pleasure to say our vandalism recovery efforts have had tremendous results. We're almost there.

All pages linking from the front page were fixed as of January 19th, 2011.

Every page under the games heading and all sub-pages were fixed as of January 19th, 2011.

Every page in the characters section and all sub-pages were fixed to normal as of January 19th, 2011.

Every page under the Seihou section on the front page has been restored.

Every page under the Games section and all sub-pages have been fixed as of January 20th, 2011.

Every page under the Printed Works section and all sub-pages have been fixed as of January 21st, 2011.

Every page under the Music section and all sub-pages have been fixed as of January 22nd, 2011.

Every page under the Encyclopedia section and all sub-pages have been fixed as of January 23, 2011.

Every page under the Miscellaneous section and all sub-pages have been fixed as of January 24, 2011

There is probably going to be a few pages here and there with vandalism on them, and some pages have some secret vandalism hidden in the text, but I did many of them (Like I can't find the phrase you are using over and over with Firefox). Just leave "that phrase" in your find bar and it will pick up stray links. I have a more through plan to get rid of all hidden links, but that can wait until we've cleaned up all the blatant vandalism.

Once I'm through with this and we get the front page unlocked, we can get on with making real changes. VS3025 06:50, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

I am now going from section to section off the main page and fixing every destroyed page I find.

When I get to some pages such as the printed works section, I am still going to restore them to their pre-vandalized state. Once I do that, any discussion regarding their copyright will be able to take place.VS3025 07:45, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Oh wow, are you actually going through all the pages manually? As I recall, it was mostly 10 or so users who did most of the link spamming (a lot of which was reverted by the global mods). It might be easier to look through user contributions, and then use the search to clean up any stragglers, but that's a matter of preference I guess. Pufferfish101 08:36, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

The biggest problem with that is that over 1000 (I stopped counting there) edits were made anonymously, so I still have a large list to go through. Also, the global mods did help but for some reason on articles edited by multiple vandals, they just reverted articles from the most recently vandalized page to a different almost the same page. Because of that, most of the mod reversion hasn't been helpful (but it has been in some places). The second disadvantage is that the pages were not edited in order, so I might fix 1 pages with 5 destroyed links 300 edits apart if I go off the user contributions list.

The way I am doing it, we get whole sections restored in order that way instead of having 3000 tiny holes we only have 100 big holes. Id rather have 800 serviceable pages and 200 destroyed ones than 1000 half-destroyed pages, at least, that is my logic behind it.

If you didn't get a chance to see, we were attacked by another registered vandal just today, he got almost 100 more pages before he stopped (I still don't know if he was banned, but I sent in a request). We're going to have to figure out the administration problem soon. The more advanced rollback tools would be helpful. We can't be legitimately move forward until this problem is taken care of. VS3025 09:57, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

You can tell when people are banned in the recent activities logs. We, at the very least, should have rollback to more easily push back the vandals, but.. to actually stop them, we'd need an administrator to ban them in their tracks, because the constant coming back and just re-vandalizing what we took out is so tedious. I said my vote D: so... do we contact her and tell her what we want or do we have to make it look more formal, even though only three people are really talking? --Imanie 22:47, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

There's no formal process. If you want to talk to Sarah, you can leave a message on her talk page on this Wiki. Also, the global mods are always available to ban vandals/revert edits, and they actually have bots instead of doing the entire process by hand. Pufferfish101 23:23, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

I dealt with the "Personalappeal.png" edits. While not as annoying as the other forms of vandalism, it did look ugly.  Devilmanozzy (Talk Page)  21:27, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Now is the time to talk about re-enabling anonymous editing. I'm pretty loathe to do this right away, but at the same time it is a pretty important part of Wikia. I'm thinking in 2-3 days. Let's hear thoughts on this.

Do it. Nothing much to say on this, really. Pufferfish101 00:04, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

This will be done once I finish editing the last few sets of pages. Would rather know that everything is new Vandalism once we unlock this. VS3025 00:36, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

Also, it isn't an instant process, as Wikia staff are the only ones who can change those permissions. But the request will be submitted. VS3025 01:06, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

If there is no longer any need, this page will probably be moved to the archives soon. VS3025 02:24, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

Specific vandals

User:A.sfihsdglkjsdnh (nice name) vandalized 26 articles in the usual way. Reverted and reported. VS3025 04:54, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

User:Jimreynold2nd vandalized 1 article earlier today in the typical fashion. Reverted, not reported.

User:Kvgdbsajkhdjdsak vandalized 1 article with anti-homosexual slurs. Reverted and reported. VS3025 01:28, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Visiting

I'm here only to remove some not so pleasant edits, Please focus on getting new admins here. Thank You.  Devilmanozzy (Talk Page)  18:59, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Two wiki's

Hi all I'm new here and noticed on google that there were two touhou wiki's. Which one is more popular? --Keikoku 22:47, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Well, many users of this wiki left to make their own. So this site has less contributors and editors. It also suffered a great deal of vandalism, as you can read about in this talk page, http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Do_You_Like_Rabbit%3F is an example of what happened (along with hundreds of other pages). We've been working for many days to try and restore all the deleted things, the main page had to be locked to prevent further vandalism, and anonymous editing had to be turned off to stop people from deleting articles. Basically, we can't work on as much new content because we are dealing with the vandalism right now.

Basically, this site is in a much less stable situation, but we're working on restoring it. Feel free to visit one site or the other, or both. We're going to be making a lot of exciting changes to this site over the next few months, but it is going to be a bit of a process to recover from all the damage that has been done (and continues to be done).

If we can't meet what you need in terms of information or community at the moment, check us out further on down the road. VS3025 23:09, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

The other one because it is backed by a larger part of the Touhou community (as I'm told at this one). This one is going through major changes in administration, layout, and a ton of other things. We are hoping to become more well known or at least looked at in the future, so if you want, please do stick around :) --Imanie 23:11, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Wiki-vandals are quite annoying. Especially if they're the same ones that moved over; don't understand what they hope to accomplish. This wiki seems to get more hits on search engines than the other one, but probably cause the other one's fairly new. Though I'm curious why you guys chose to stay when the majority left? --XTsukihime 23:40, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Creating wikis/doing things like cleaning up, templates, etc. Helps me learn more about a topic I'm interested in. This wiki continues to get hits because all the vandals continue to come back and give it more hits. All the people who are complaining about this one being at the top of google sites (complaining on this site) are contributing to it gaving more hits so it continues to stay popular in a search engine's eyes. If they're logged in users, you can check and see out of all those people that left who continues to come back and visit.

I don't know what the community of Touhou fans are like, or what they were like, but I hope the vandals aren't an indication of what to expect. I haven't really chcked in at the new one too much, I might later because, I am new and interested in the topic :3 but, who knows! I probably won't contribute after what I've gone through here, so that also helped on my decision. --Imanie 00:46, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, I think that wikia allows for a more interesting site than the general wiki format. I could be wrong, but from what I understand the other site can't or won't have things like blogs or forums, and here you are a part of a much larger community of gaming and other wikis. It is my personal belief that community building through avenues such as those can make the Touhou community stronger and larger. Just building a Touhou encyclopedia is all well and good, but there is potential for a lot more than that.VS3025 00:55, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

You were allowed to have your own personal pages and discuss touhou related stuff since this wiki was hosted at pooshlmer.com. See Category:Contemplations and Category:Replays for example. The new wiki is no different, you can still open discussions about the characters and stuff like that, but the thing is, people prefer to post such stuff on a well established forum or imageboard instead, as proven by time. Master Bigode 01:13, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

I have not used wikia before and started with the other one, but I am under the impression that installing new extensions on wikia is a lengthy process and doesn't just happen at the snap of your fingers?

Forums definitely would be nice, seeing how currently many users follow the wiki style of archiving pages which is incredibly useless unless it is re-organized so information can be easily found, but then again, it doesn't seem like the forums here is very active either --XTsukihime 02:13, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

For the full history of the move, check out the archives (2). I will report the following though. The decision was made in This new look it's...it's.... The move was backed by consensus. All users with a recent active history of the previous wiki (Wikia) before the move are supporting the new wiki (touhouwiki). Kiefmaster99 05:02, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

New Admins

I suppose we should give a welcome to our new admins and new bureaucrat, Imanie and VS3025. Here's to making good decisions and taking this wiki in a new direction from just being a content fork. Pufferfish101 20:07, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Reinvention: Stage 1

This is where I want discussion to go for immediate changes we will be making to the wiki. In this sense, I mean changes we hope to take place within a few weeks time.

1) Redesign of the front page. We are going with a portal style for the front page. Work on this is going to start soon.

• Template:Main page template page for changing the main page look and content.
  • I protected the creator components of this and made the slider able to be hanged by only logged in users. Portal parts can be created by anyone and added to the help pages.
  • Character slides are finished

I've been following what you have done and it looks good so far. We can work on formatting issues such as pictures/color whenever you think it is appropriate, just let me know where you want help. VS3025 18:42, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

2) Redesign of the "site icon." As adorable as pointing Alice is, it isn't our icon and we will design a new one. Suggestions welcome, personally, I'm thinking of hand drawing and scanning one in.

I'm going to be creating some sample drafts within the next two days as time allows. Expect Aya. VS3025 18:42, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

3) Name change: The name of the site is going to change, to what is open for suggestion. Regardless, the metadata is going to stay the same.

4) Forum and Blog additions: These will become a primary part of the main page. Work is being done on this right now.

• Re-did the forum and added a few more places to talk in there.
• Added a News page for Blogs. This can be aired anywhere and will host any Blog page that is in the news category.

5) Plan for redesign of the rest of the site: We can't start this right away with a small staff, but we can start planning for it.

6) Copyright compliance: Although I was a bit standoffish about this at first, I do agree that we should make this site comply with all meaningful copyrights. We will continue discussion and prepare for removal and summary additions. See Stage 2 for more details.

None of this is written in stone nor will implementation be perfect. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to add them under the appropriate number. If anyone thinks the list needs additions, by all means add them. VS3025 23:02, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

1) Support.

2) I like this idea, but you're going to need a good artist...

3) Er...not sure what name you could change to, really.

4) So what blog posts fit in the news category? Will anyone be able to just add their blog to the news category?

5) Redesign is no small task. What are you thinking of?

6) Support.

Pufferfish101 00:12, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

1. I can start trying to copy over some of the portal stuff and try to get it to work. If it all falls apart >.> I can go call for help! hehe.
3. Touhou Project Wiki :p It's different but still says what the wiki is about ;) However, I can make a forum post where people can add up their name ideas (because we can actually change the site name here, rather easily) and then have a poll to vote on it.
4. Anyone can add a blog news page, I believe. All you have to do is add your post to the category.

--Imanie 00:31, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

3: GENSOKYO WIKI --XTsukihime 15:49, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

For #3, I made a forum page to kind of get forum use started (if people want to try it). I added XTsuki's idea, with my other one. So... :) I hope someone tries it out! By all means, add more and your thoughts on them. This will all be coming down to a vote in the end by the people here. New Wiki Name! --Imanie 23:02, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

1-5) For the time being, indifferent.

6) Support. I would also like to add I don't see why individuals can't take initiative to follow through with individual portions, especially since 6) is by far the easiest step that can be taken by anybody. Copyrights have not been debated for a week. The removal of links that go to sites that violate copyright is very easy to implement. At the same time, this must be followed by removal of all links associated with that entity, or that's just being silly. Kiefmaster99 01:35, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

I did create a template to add to pages if YOU want to take the initiative and do that. Also, if the other wiki still contains the same copyrighted content, then we'd have to remove ALL those links as well. Right now, most of us are ok with fixing up the other larger things, but if you want to start removing the other wiki links, go ahead. :) --Imanie 01:40, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

So long as this policy applies uniformly to all sites violating said criteria without prejudice, I have no problems. Also, what template is this? Kiefmaster99 01:42, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

I added information about it all onto your user talk page. I hope you actually start adding those templates to everything that might need to go and start commenting out the page so it can be checked later. :D --Imanie 01:56, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

Reinvention: Stage 2

This is where I want to discuss changes to the site that we hope to conduct within the next few months.

1) Copyright compliance: Although the beginnings of copyright compliance will begin immediately, I want removed articles to be replaced with a summary when possible (obviously it won't always be), or at least to a link where people can get more information (artist's web page, for example) but NO LINKS to copyrighted content unless it is legitimate (if the author put up his work on the web, that can be linked to, but not shamelessly copied). This means that things have to be fixed as they are taken down. As always, this is open to suggestion, but I'd prefer to not leave big gaping holes.

2) Blog and Forum expansion: After getting these created and integrated more directly with the site, we should plan on further developing their use.

3) Integration with the Wikia community: Making this page a larger part of Wikia and not completely isolated will be a long term benefit to this page.

4) Biweekly Podcast: I don't care, I'm doing this until it gets too lame to keep going.

5) Fan-based or User-created content: We need to decide how to integrate this with our site. Discussions on doing so will go here.

None of this is written in stone at this point. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to add them under the appropriate number. If anyone thinks the list needs additions, by all means add them. VS3025 23:11, January 24, 2011 (UTC)