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Archive 1
Archive 2

  • Archive1: November 2008 ~ July 2009
    • Topics covered: Nomenclature and denotation, Imperishable Night categories, High scoring vs. no-milking, Adding replays to the board, MSH controversy, Bug reports, Multiple pseudonym issues, I.O Record found, Replay Bug

UFO score thresholds (definition of "high")

This is the first time when we're adding scores for a completely new game without established scoring standards and goals. I believe we shouldn't add every score out there because: a) they are going to pop up several times a day; b) they aren't necessarily going to be high. And since the page is named "High scores", there is a certain motivation to add scores that actually ARE high. For instance, I added Heartbeam's score because it was on par with Reprise's, and both of them seem to be "high enough", but they are also the first of their kind and we don't yet know what to expect in the future.
This calls for thresholds on scores to be added in order to save time and not clog the replay categories with random replays. So, either we wait some time (a few weeks, probably a month) to let experienced players join in and make initial scoring routes, or think up reference scores to look out for. As such, we empirically "established" that the minimum threshold for Easy seems to be around 900 million so far. Dumbing down the guesswork, I multiplied it by a factor of 1.3 (a relatively safe value partly derived from the difference between trial version records) and got ~1.2 billion for Normal, ~1.5 billion for Hard, and ~2 billion for Lunatic. For Extra, I guess we'll have to go with the first full-spellcard clear. If no-one objects to this plan, this is how I'll be adding new scores. — moozooh 20:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC).

I agree. I certainly haven't been uploading every replay I've come across. Basically, I look for the following two characteristics:
* All or nearly all spellcards captured
* Clear evidence of motivation to advance score (collecting blue UFO pieces, not just red/green ones)
Reprise's 916M Easy fits this description, so I uploaded it. It's clearly improvable, and I think 1 billion+ for Easy is easily attainable. Rather than estimating "safe values," I just watch each replay and inspect its quality manually.
The TH12 score attackers have been a bit slower than for previous TH games...but then again, this installment is the most complex from a scoring perspective, and most error prone (missing one UFO piece could throw off the entire sequence...)
There is already a 300M EX replay that misses only one spellcard. It's solid, except that he goes for too many red/rainbow UFOs as opposed to green ones. Obviously, we're not at the point where players are comfortable enough to optimize graze.
I think the "final" WR will be at least 3B for Lunatic and 400M for EX. On St6, by bombing the rows of fairies it's possible to get 700 blue chips * (80,000-100,000 points/chip) * 8.0 UFO multiplier = 448,000,000-560,000,000 points.
Eriksson 21:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I don't think that UFO's scoring system is the most complex to date: there is no end-of-game bonus to speak of, so lives and bombs will generally be sacrificed at every scoring opportunity, and all the critical spots with dense concentration of point and power items are pretty much in-your-face (compared to, say, PCB, which enjoyed something like a dozen new profitable Supernatural Border spots since GIL's landmark replay). Actually, I was surprised to see a replay of Reprise's caliber the second day after the release. On the other hand, grazing and milking UFOs till the last second obviously brings a relatively high degree of execution into the equation, so it probably won't be maxed out as soon as MoF or SA (or IN, if you discount Extra/Lunatic). The problem with exponential scoring systems is that a small improvement early on may result in a drastic net gain in the last couple stages. I'm almost positive the records will eventually go all the way to 1.1–1.2B for Easy, 1.6–1.8B for Normal, 2.2–2.5B for Hard, and at least 3.4B for Lunatic. Heh, I remember the first 2+ billion replays for SA thinking "well, this shouldn't be improvable by that much", and the current WR ended up over twice "that much", with theoretical limit extending to something close to 4.4B. In this context, appraising the replays "manually" doesn't give much of a consistency benefit, but I guess there's no sense in making this as serious a business, either.
In short, do as you see fit. Myself, I most definitely won't watch every new replay until they stabilize to a degree, so I'll probably stick to my way in those cases. — moozooh 23:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC).

Proposed new replay format

Currently the system works like this: (1) download randomly-named replay from Royalflare etc. -> (2) upload replay to Wiki -> (3) link to replay under the parameter THxxReplay

Instead, I believe that it would be more efficient if we used standardized names for the replays. For example, the WR replay for TH12, category #03 (Marisa-A on Easy Mode) would *always* be uploaded to Th12_ud1203.rpy. If this record is obsoleted in the future, that new replay would be overwritten to the *same filename*, Th12_ud1203.rpy. I like how Moozooh has been entering replay data (player, score, date) as he uploads them, so there shouldn't be any confusion.

Under this system, we can take out the "THxxReplay" parameter in the templates and save a step in updating the records. Another advantage is that we would be able to go down the list, download all the replays, move them to our /replay directory, and they would appear all in order on the user replays screen. This allows for rapid and easy verification.

In summary...

  • Advantage #1: More efficient; one fewer parameter to update.
  • Advantage #2: Takes up less space on the wiki server, since obsoleted WR replays are overwritten instead of relocated.
  • Advantage #3: Downloaded replays would appear in category order on the user replays screen.
  • You will have to rename the .rpy to the proper name before you upload it.

What do you think? Eriksson 21:18, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

What I do agree with: advantages #1 and #3. What I don't agree with: overwriting obsolete replay files. Newer replays don't always surpass their predecessors in every way (for instance, omitting certain risky strategies or making mistakes that weren't there before). Some exhibit completely different scoring routes that turn out marginally better than the previous ones result-wise. Either way we might end up losing an important reference. I don't think it would be wise to erase such historic landmarks, when the purpose of uploading the replays in the first place was preserving them so that they would be accessible at any time. I'm afraid I'm against this idea for this reason alone. However, if there is a way to make a single reference page for a category without erasing the entire file backlog associated with it, you have green lights from me. (Also, filespace isn't a concern, really.) — moozooh 21:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC).
Actually, #2 shouldn't be a problem. If you look at File:Th12 udTn02.rpy, backups of every single revision are stored and downloadable under the "File History" section. So obsoleted replays should still remain intact. Eriksson 22:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
All good then. I probably won't take the challenge of renaming and replacing all links myself, though, we should probably do it gradually unless you, Anonymizer, or KyoriAsh feel like doing it in batches. — moozooh 23:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC).
I know what you mean, but I not really agree of this proposal. Old replay does deserve to stay as some link are using [[Media:Thxx_udxxxx.rpy]] to direct download the file, so not a good idea, although it does save time to update. Currently, I preserve those previous replay just like in THPWiki's article for users who want to view previous attempt by professional players - KyoriAsh 07:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
First, the old replays under udxxxx aren't necessarily being deleted; they can remain intact and so your links would still work. I'm just proposing a "from now on" change...of course, if we switched to this new system, nothing is keeping interested parties from uploading mirrors under udxxxx for the purpose of easy linking (as you seem to be suggesting.) Eriksson 10:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
(too many : so I put 1 enough) The "from now on" is doing like Thxx_udRmEA.rpy for Reimu Easy A, udMaEB for Marisa Easy B and etc.? - KyoriAsh 15:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
OK, seems new replay format has been implemented, I think I can kill the XXX yyy replay parameter and implement into template, is it OK enough?
Meanwhile, using Media or using File prefix? Due to Media prefix can let user straight away download the replay, while File need to go to the article and download it. - KyoriAsh 08:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
File, I guess. It allows viewing the entire history of WRs in a category, which I believe is more useful overall compared to single-click download. Although if you implement the changes into the templates at this point, won't that break anything with links following the old format? — moozooh 12:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC).
Well I can try for Undefined Fantastic Object first, others not in my modify scope. - KyoriAsh 12:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
EDIT: OK, have a look on UFO WR template ^^ (well, showing File:xxx a bit not suit my style as I direct use Wiki link)
Why is it showing "File:", actually? I looked at the template code and it has [[File:Th12_udxxxx.rpy|Replay]], shouldn't it show "Replay" instead of the article name? Gah, I wish I was better with wiki markup… — moozooh 13:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC).
Sad to said that only [[Media:xxx]] support name changing... I revert back to "Replay" since I also not really like the FILE - KyoriAsh 13:39, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Looks great. Thanks for all your hard work. I like how we can now keep track of the world record progression in each category as well. Eriksson 08:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Unconfirmed High Score

I.O's UFO Hard Hi-score Link, but not sure which character he used... (BTW, that's my thread of updating High Scores...) - KyoriAsh 23:21, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

I've seen that screenshot. I left it unattended because there was no way to update the table with it without knowing what character was used. If I.O doesn't plan on releasing a replay for this score in near future (I guess he wants to improve it first, or something like that), you could try asking him what the character was (I bet it was Sanae-B).
Then again, it's not a problem if he won't tell, because we'll likely see a better score within a month or so when the other veterans learn the routes and tricks and start submitting scores. Kagamin is already in the game. — moozooh 01:55, September 6, 2009 (UTC).
UFO must have the slowest record progression of any recent TH installment. There isn't even a half-decent (score-wise) Lunatic replay yet and it's been a month since Comiket. I recall that only 2 or 3 days after Subterranean Animism's debut, a 2.5 billion Lunatic replay was posted to royalflare. I wonder what the pros have been doing instead of playing UFO. AM is returning to SA and aiming for 4.3 billion. YASU is still working on Imperishable Night. ASAPIN is nowhere to be found. Suisei-Slime is also nowhere to be found. Et cetera. 05:00, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
I believe it was somewhat similar in case with Perfect Cherry Blossom (no significant score progress until that one tourney where GIL showcased his famous 2.5 billion replay). One of the problems is that the UFO system requires some route research, and not every world class player opts to copy others' strategies. The other problem is that the game doesn't give you as many extends as earlier installments when played for score. And since most of the important grazing maneuvers aren't done under an invincibility effect, unlike in SA, it puts a lot of pressure on the players on higher difficulties (which might actually be the reason ASAPIN hasn't posted a full run yet). Many of the prominent "breakthrough" players being inactive or busy with jobs at this point is also an important factor, of course. Well, at least ISO is doing a good job with Normal mode. The guy plays, like, everything he has! He just recorded a run for DDP DaiFukkatsu superplay DVD, and he's already making new Touhou records again. :D
Btw, have you noticed that the score curve per difficulty is beginning to look very similar to Perfect Cherry Blossom's as well? 1.8–1.9B on Easy, 2.0–2.2B on Normal, etc.. — moozooh 21:01, September 15, 2009 (UTC).

Showcase Replay anyone?

Well it seems that this Article has been "abandoned" for a long time, only TH7 and TH8 featured on that article, anyone willing to pick some replay and insert there? - KyoriAsh 17:31, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding, I once planned to do an overhaul of that article since pretty much everything there has been obsoleted on all counts by this point. — moozooh 21:01, September 15, 2009 (UTC).
Ok, I outlined a new plan on the discussion page. If I receive no comments in the next few days, I'll replace the current content with those replays. — moozooh 22:52, September 15, 2009 (UTC).
Not to press this on you, but I'm still looking forward to the article revamp. I'm missing a few of the replays you've proposed to add, but do say something if there's anything you need done. — Anonymizer 00:55, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

MATSU's 2010/04/21 Easy Reimu-A EoSD replay appears broken in Stage 5.

Did anyone ever bother to check this replay, either here or on Royalflare? It seems to be broken. In Stage 5, the player quickly loses all remaining lives during the mid-stage fight with Sakuya. This happens both with the English-patched EoSD and with the Japanese-language 1.02h version (which I ran using AppLocale). Royalflare's replay file isn't any different from the one here.

The other stages are fine, and I don't have problems with other replays.

(I've also added this comment to the replay file's own Talk page.)

--Colin Douglas Howell 19:55, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

MATSU's 2010/06/07 Normal Reimu-B EoSD replay is also broken at Stage 5.

As with his 2010/04/21 Easy Reimu-A EoSD replay, this replay also goes out of sync in Stage 5, in this case during the first phases of the main boss fight (first non-spellcard attack and first spellcard). Again, tested by replaying the stage alone and by replaying from the beginning. All the other stages are fine, including Stage 6.

The Royalflare replay file is the same. MATSU's other June 2010 replays appear to be fine.

--Colin Douglas Howell 18:18, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure RoyalFlare will have what answer of MATSU's both replay as both replay is valid in RoyalFlare scoreboard... Let's wait and see what RoyalFlare will do this tme - KyoriAsh 22:02, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Current date usage

Erm.. the {{REVISIONDAY}} seems to follow GMT + 0, so I would like to ask how to do for other time zone? - KyoriAsh 16:54, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Fairy Wars wannabe

First thing, I think that FW WR template can kill off Used Characters column as the game only use Cirno

2nd Thing, if you don't know how to fix FW WR template please drop message in template discussion and see what I can do - KyoriAsh 08:23, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Fairy Wars EX High Scores

I understand that there is a user on THProject [a Chinese TH community] who has been setting all these new 90M+ EX records...yet does not want his/her replays to be shared with the public. Now, I kinda have an issue with this...the player, of course, has a right to privacy, but I don't think any record without a publicly-viewable replay should be recognised on this site, due to the potential for falsification and abuse. I know this is a touchy issue, so what do the rest of you think? Eriksson 04:05, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. One of the reasons we've started to list all scores rather than the highest ones is to be a complete reference that doesn't exist elsewhere on the web. Royalflare scores get deleted all the time, many don't even get submitted (many non-clears suffer this fate), some exist only as a screenshot or a mention in a player's blog (like when YASU, Hirona, or AM shot for a high score), some are old enough that the replay doesn't exist or is otherwise inaccessible (I.O scores, and some other ones from 2004–2006). Record credibility is important, but I don't think we should act as a scoreboard institution and enforce strict rules such as the existence of a replay, or take scores down because their author doesn't like them listed here. This is a wiki after all, people don't submit replays here — they list them because somebody somewhere made them and it is important for some players to know about it.
What we should still do, however, is check available replays for obvious cheating. For instance, MSH has been the cause of a scandal a couple years ago (ref), so I don't know if it makes sense to remove a replay verified by a closed community but accept one from a known cheater. In regards to CID's replays, I could try to get a hold of them to verify their authenticity (I post at DoujinSTG from time to time), and I know KyoriAsh should definitely be able to, being a long-time member, so we could probably leave it up to him to verify, but I don't think it's warranted in this case. If I understand the situation right, CID will eventually submit — either after the main Royalflare scoreboard goes up, or until he feels he has hit his limit. — moozooh 08:49, August 28, 2010 (UTC).
The reason we began archiving replays here was due to all the deletions from Royalflare. The copy of the replay exists to verify the score. On the other hand, accepting occasional screenshots from YASU, AM, and other well-established TH players as validation is okay, because they've proven themselves to be honest people. And in the end they always delivered with public replays of their respective highest scores. But this new player (CID, was it?) I've literally never heard of, and that someone would want to keep a record-breaking replay under wraps just reeks of suspicion to me. Eriksson 10:16, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
"Proven" is kind of overstating it, because, want it or not, we operate under presumption of innocence because it's been possible to cheat at Touhou transparently for pretty much as long as the series exists. We have never seen YASU and AM play, and thus our only proof of their skill is a file that can be tampered with as much as any other one. In fact, repeated suspicion of cheating made AM close his blog earlier this year because his play style is indeed very aggressive (probably the most aggressive compared to the other top-tier players). But we believe him because we have neither a reason to question his abilities nor a possibility to actually check them.
As you said, we started archiving replays after the deletions became frequent, but before that we had a scoreboard without replays. Scores were verified (in case they were) by people who have seen the replay. We have a community of people including at least one top-tier player (LYX) who can (and possibly have) done that — what would be the practical difference in this particular sense? That being said, I'll try asking CID for the password, but I'll understand if he won't give it to me before releasing it to the public. — moozooh 11:35, August 28, 2010 (UTC).
Ok, I asked CID for a password and he PM'd it to me. I've watched the 90 mil replay and it's definitely the real deal: score improvement comes from strategic breakthroughs first and foremost, such as choosing optimal freeze timing/positioning, using the bomb offensively — think EoSD — for huge area coverage (>90% in some cases), and being smart about character's capabilities in general. He reaches level 7 by midboss fight and level 14 by Marisa. There's also potential for improvement, so I'm certain we'll see a 100 million score before the end of the year.
I haven't received permission to publicize the replay, but I'll readd the score. I believe soon you will be able to watch it. — moozooh 15:50, August 28, 2010 (UTC).

Table update guidelines

Since this went basically untouched for nearly two years of the page's existence, which has since resulted in conflicts and disrepancies, I think we should finally come up with some universal standards to adhere to when editing the page and uploading replays.

I will create the High scores/Updating guidelines page and will add some preliminary content which we — moozooh, KyoriAsh, Anonymizer, Eriksson, Mshearts, and other score trackers — will then discuss. After we come to some kind of consensus it should be linked to from the main page and closely followed. — moozooh, September 11, 2010 (UTC).

Ok, page created — please, have look at it and discuss. — moozooh 20:15, September 11, 2010 (UTC).
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