The Scarlet Devil Mansion is where many of the most prominent residents of Gensokyo either live or are known to visit, yet there's many mysteries surrounding it. This page is for people to share thoughts and ideas concerning everything about this cryptic house. Feel free to make you own additions and comments, but try to leave as much of what was already here the way it was. -Redpanda
- Uh, I think you should use horizontal rules to separate the various threads of discussion, not everything that everyone writes. Use indents to make the replies stand out more. -7HS
- I was about to give subsection titles for each section for organization, but so far I can't think of more than one subsection for each section (Origin for The Scarlet Sisters section and Age for Meirin's section, for example). Maybe if more content is added later with more subjects then that change can be made. After that change is made (maybe someone wants to do it?) then formatting ideas can probably be moved to talk. Redpanda
The Scarlet Sisters
I feel more and more like the Scarlet sisters, Remilia and Flandre, are French in origin.
- Scarlet Devil Mansion is a European style house.
- All the maids wear French maid uniforms.
- "de Flandre" is a French surname meaning "of Flanders," a region now part of Belgium and the southern part of which is now part of France. All my searches for the name "Remilia" are coming up with very little. There's a few people with that as a first or last name in the world, but not enough for me to pin down an origin. I found a handful of very minor connections to French and Spanish names.
- Imagine: "A Sakuwan of Flanders." Fearsome. -7HS
- Perfect Momento suggests that SDM was not originally located in Gensokyo- "Later, the Scarlet Devil Mansion relocated to within Gensokyo," maybe in the same way that the Prismriver mansion wasn't originally inside Gensokyo.
- The same page says Sakuya is not originally from Gensokyo.
- Another page of Perfect Momento also says Remilia is not originally from Gensokyo- "She was called the Scarlet Devil before coming to Gensokyo."
- The name of Remilia's theme song, "Septette for a Dead Princess", is based on a French song Pavane pour une infante défunte (Pavane for a Dead Princess)
- Patchouli is the name of a plant/oil that is used in many perfumes in Europe. France is well known for making many perfumes, and a google search for patchouli France produces many, many results.
- Probably unrelated, but New Orleans (heavy French influence) is actually known as the "vampire capital of the world." -Redpanda
- Remilia states she's descended from Vlad Tepes, who was Romanian. Could be a vampiric line of descent (i.e. one of Vlad's progeny bit her) rather then a physical one, though. -7HS
The Great Library of Patchouli
The theme song for EoSD Stage 4 (set in this library) is "Voile, the magic library". Many doujin call the library itself "Voile". However, do consider that 'Voile' is French for "tada~". -Psieye
I was wondering just what the herb patchouli is for and where it's from, since it seems like such a random thing to choose for a character name. According to wikipedia it's from the East (originally) and West Indies and is very popular among hippies. It's also a popular perfume in Europe, apparently. Might be interesting to see a fan comic of Hippy Patchouli... *hinthint* This page from The Fifth Sense has a good description of what Patchouli smells like. Considering the East Asian connections, I might have to come up with some sort of Indian (a hindu god lives inside patchouli) or Chinese outfit for her... *hinthint* -Redpanda
- I found on various websites that patchouli (presumably as an incense or aromatherapy oil) relaxes the mind and opens it to spiritual knowledge. It's also an aphrodisiac. -7HS
Actually, what are the chances Patchouli was given that name when she was born compared to Remilia giving her that name when they first met? She's about 100 years old so was born after the Sealing. Why would such a 'young' Youkai have an extremely non-Japanese name like that? Hmm... worth expanding this speculation at some later time I guess... *makes a note to do so* -Psieye
Sakuya's Deflated World
Sakuya is probably one of the most mysterious of all characters. So much is known about her because she's been so prominent since first appearing but for everything known there's many unanswered questions to go with it. In Perfect Momento it's written that Sakuya "...claims to be in her late teens, but this is unlikely judging by her refined manner and the level of her abilities. Rather, she seems to be a human who has been living for hundreds of years." This could also support the theory that Sakuya may possibly be a Lunarian that some fans have suggested. In the past I had thought, before reading some other things about her, that maybe she had at some point accidentally (or purposely) frozen her own time hundreds of years ago and was fated (by Remilia) to come out of that frozen time in the present. Maybe not.
I noticed the side comic on the article Aya wrote about Eirin, seen here, suggests that if Sakuya stops/slows time to do more work too often she'll age faster. Maybe it shouldn't be taken too seriously (like so many other "facts" in Gensokyo's tabloid- I mean the Bunbunmaru), but it could refute theories that Sakuya may be extending her age through time manipulation by saying the opposite is what would actually happen. Maybe more support for the Lunarian theory. Redpanda
- Well, it's truth regardless of her life expectancy. She's not immortal so some time (whether it's decades or centuries or millennia, we don't know) she will die of old age. Or maybe Lunarians (and Youkai?) are like Elves in that they have eternal youth, yet can die from other causes... Yes I'm assuming Sakuya has Lunarian blood in her. -Psieye
- I'm going to throw a wrench in all of this and make a counter note. Even though I think it'd be very interesting if Sakuya was Luranian (and I was starting to think she might possibly be), it's mentioned in these sources that she's human-
- Profile from Embodiment of Scarlet Devil- "The maid is a human about 10~20 years old. That power of hers distances her from the human race. She has given up trying to relate to ordinary people."
- Profiles in Immaterial and Missing Power, Imperishable Night, and Phantasmagoria of Flower View all say the same thing- "Spicies: Human"
- In Embodiment of Scarlet Devil after Reimu beats Sakuya Remilia enters and says (about Sakuya) "I knew it. Humans are useless." Of course Reimu then asks "Was that maid really human?"
- In Perfect Cherry Blossom Lyrica threatens to eat Sakuya and starts making fun of her by singing "Dog meat, dog meat~" but Sakuya insists "Human meat!" Youmu tells her "You're a human, I see. So this is why all the ghosts here were noisy...it's because a living human has come." Later when Ran enters she says "I smell a human~ Oh, I'm mistaken." Sakuya corrects her saying "No, you aren't."
- In Immaterial and Missing Power Reimu asks if it's Sakuya's unlucky year (19 and 33 for women). Sakuya replies "Never. You know my age, don't you?" I don't know if she means it's not either of them yet (and is under 19), or that she's already past them both and it'll never be those years again, but she expects Reimu to know her age.
- In Imperishable Night's scarlet team scenario Mystia says "...A human and a bat? That's an unusual pair." Reisen, who's from the moon and should recognize a Lunarian if she saw one, said "You're just filthy earth-crawlers, after all" to both Sakuya and Remilia. Sakuya refers to the two of them as "An invincible lady and an invincible human" when talking to Kaguya and tells Mokou "Unfortunately, I'm a human." Although Mokou does ask "Hey, you. Are you really human?" Remilia later says "Oh, I almost forgot. Sakuya is a human that can die. How about becoming immortal, Sakuya? Then we can live together forever." Sakuya replies "I will be a mortal Human my whole life."
- In Phantasmagoria of Flower View Mystia says to Sakuya "Tonight's dish is a human maid!" Komachi tells her "you're one troublesome human."
- I think the point ZUN is trying to make is that Sakuya is a very atypical and mysterious human, but is still a human. It's hardly ever questioned that someone like Reimu is human because she obviously is, but it's stressed so many times in literally every game Sakuya has appeared that she really is human that it makes you feel that there is at least some question or doubt, and that's what adds to the mysteriousness of her character (and part of what makes her interesting). Creating a character that purposely has missing information about them can enhance the character by making fans wonder about them rather than to simply have all the facts plainly laid out. Now, then again, even if she's human it doesn't mean she can't be older than she claims as Perfect Momento suggests... -Redpanda
- However, Perfect Memento lists Eirin and Kaguya under the human section of the encyclopedia. From the text Akyu is clearly aware that they come from the moon, so she, at least, considers Lunarians to be human. -7HS
- That pretty much is my thought yes. Sakuya herself may not be aware that she has Lunarian blood and it's naive to think Reisen must be able to tell apart an Earth-born human from a Lunarian human just because she's from the Moon. Or at least, Reisen would need a deeper inspection to tell than outer appearances.
- This is more a question of 'what defines a Lunarian and are they any biological/inherent different from regular humans aside from life expectancy?' really. As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference aside from life expectancy and Culture (the latter only applies if they were born and brought up on the Moon). Oh and access to certain types of magic - having thought about Kaguya's ability and Akyu mentioning "time magic isn't something one can learn through training, you must be born with it", I had the thought that Sakuya's time magic is from Lunarian blood. Who knows? Maybe Sakuya is descended from a noble family, exiled long ago before her birth...
- In short, since none of the Gensokyo characters (including Sakuya) can (assumption yes) tell apart an Earth-born human and a Lunarian from outer appearances, whatever they say about her species can't be taken as absolute. Eirin probably could if she did a medical examination, but she hasn't done so yet and probably would just leave it aside as an amusing fact if she did find out the truth. -Psieye
- However, Perfect Memento lists Eirin and Kaguya under the human section of the encyclopedia. From the text Akyu is clearly aware that they come from the moon, so she, at least, considers Lunarians to be human. -7HS
- I'm going to throw a wrench in all of this and make a counter note. Even though I think it'd be very interesting if Sakuya was Luranian (and I was starting to think she might possibly be), it's mentioned in these sources that she's human-
Chinese Tea with Meirin
We really know very little about Meirin. Apart from being Chinese, a martial artist, and not the sharpest knife in the drawer, there's just not that much else. I've always wondered about her age, specifically. Gensokyo was sealed from the outside world in 1884 [edit-has been corrected]. Meirin comes from China. Last I checked, China is not located inside Gensokyo. Therefore, Meirin (along with much of the rest of the household) originally came into Gensokyo from the outside world. So the question is did she-
- 1. come through the barrier after the sealing (supposedly very hard to do and could make her any age)
- 2. was she already in Gensokyo before the sealing (which would make her over 120 [edit-has been corrected] and possibly older than Patchouli)
- 3. She came into Gensokyo along with the entire rest of the Scarlet household whenever it was that SDM was transported inside Gensokyo (possibly the least likely since, if SDM originated in Europe as I think, it would require Meirin to have been all the way over in Europe at some point).
The most likely of those three options seems to be 2, which means Hong Meirin could actually be older than Patchouli Knowledge. -Redpanda
- Wait hang on, what's the source for "1864"? The timeline suggests 1884 and furthermore, Meirin's boss theme is titled "Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17" which implies (Meiji 17 = 1884) the sealing was at 1884 and Meirin was alive back then. -Psieye
- Originally I had written 1884 from memory, a couple edits ago, but then I looked at the Gensokyo page and saw it said 1865. I then proceeded to change what I had written to 1864 because it was 3am and I wasn't paying that much attention. Maybe the Gensokyo page needs a correction? Redpanda
- The previous date was probably estimated prior to Bohemian Archive (where we first got actual calendar dates for events in Gensokyo), based on the statement that "the moon landing was nearly a century after Gensokyo's sealing." I've corrected it. -7HS
- Originally I had written 1884 from memory, a couple edits ago, but then I looked at the Gensokyo page and saw it said 1865. I then proceeded to change what I had written to 1864 because it was 3am and I wasn't paying that much attention. Maybe the Gensokyo page needs a correction? Redpanda
Perfect Memento in Strict Sense identifies Meirin as a Youkai. Yet her title in EoSD is "Girl of Chinese Descent". This could be interpreted to mean that she's from a line of humanoid Youkai who live in China and she happened to be caught in Gensokyo when it was sealed. -Psieye
- Actually, given that humans can also become Youkai under the right conditions... Maybe Meirin was just an ordinary girl who happened to be in Japan (specifically, Gensokyo) when it got sealed. Say, does "got bitten by a vampire, but victim failed to reach vampirism" count as Youkai? Tsukihime (Type Moon) would classify them as "Walking Dead" but what are ZUN's definitions? A detachably separate detail to my speculation would be that her hair became red when she turned Youkai. -Psieye
- Remi's profile: She is a light eater. In other words, she can drink only a little blood at a time and must leave the rest behind, so the humans off of whom she feeds become a bit anemic, but usually stay alive. Due to that fact, she is never able to increase the number of her kind. -7HS
- Ah I'd missed that last sentence before. Still... 2 ways around that:
- 1) I strongly suspect Remilia (and Flandre) aren't the only vampires in the SDM. Just as Aya isn't the only Tengu in Gensokyo, I believe there are more but they simply haven't been introduced to us. For example, I have a suspicion Koakuma is a young member of the Scarlet bloodline. Akyu writes that some Youkai (presumably including vampires) don't like attacking humans in Gensokyo, and Sakuya feeds them pre-cooked humans (and other ingredients) so they don't have to unnecessarily increase their numbers. Still, Meirin might have been an unlucky early case who got sucked.
- 2) Meirin became Youkai after her fate got altered (knowingly or not) by Remilia. This still doesn't answer what the 'specific conditions' were that made her a Youkai of course... -Psieye
- Just a note that although we do not know of any other official vampires at SDM, we do know that Kurumi and possibly Elis are vampires from other touhou games. The real problems that keep coming up is that we still (at this time) don't have a solid official definition of "devil," "demon," "vampire," "witch," and many others from ZUN. All we know is that their official profiles sometimes say things like "Species: Youkai" or "Vampire," etc., which is very confusing since some of these terms are very vague. Youkai could mean all sorts of things, and some terms like witch and magician are sometimes interchanged and sometimes specified as a definitive species. One important note though- ZUN did say "Devils are mighty race among Gensokyo, like magicians or vampires" when talking about Koakuma, which implies that she is not a vampire if devils and vampires are different things. Redpanda
- Personally I think ZUN has in mind that "Vampire" is a subset of "Devil". As in, Remilia and other vampires count as Devils. Otherwise I can't think why it's the Scarlet Devil Mansion, and "Scarlet Devil" for Remilia, who also has spellcards with 'Devil' specifically mentioned in them. But yes, the vagueness of terminology really doesn't help and multiple interpretations can be equally valid at present. -Psieye
- Just a note that although we do not know of any other official vampires at SDM, we do know that Kurumi and possibly Elis are vampires from other touhou games. The real problems that keep coming up is that we still (at this time) don't have a solid official definition of "devil," "demon," "vampire," "witch," and many others from ZUN. All we know is that their official profiles sometimes say things like "Species: Youkai" or "Vampire," etc., which is very confusing since some of these terms are very vague. Youkai could mean all sorts of things, and some terms like witch and magician are sometimes interchanged and sometimes specified as a definitive species. One important note though- ZUN did say "Devils are mighty race among Gensokyo, like magicians or vampires" when talking about Koakuma, which implies that she is not a vampire if devils and vampires are different things. Redpanda
- Remi's profile: She is a light eater. In other words, she can drink only a little blood at a time and must leave the rest behind, so the humans off of whom she feeds become a bit anemic, but usually stay alive. Due to that fact, she is never able to increase the number of her kind. -7HS
The EoSD music room for Meiling's theme mentions the French Concession. According to that webpage it was a rather quiet and unremarkable place up until the 1930s, when it became a notorious red-light district. ZUN described it in Dolls in Pseudo Paradise as "A smoke of opium is drifting all around the city. Many people are dancing waltz in a dazzling dress..." suggesting that he had the red-light district in mind, but where's Meiji 17 enter into it? -7HS
Scarlet Devil Mansion's Migration to Gensokyo
When would the SDM have moved to Gensokyo? When it was sealed or much more recently? Aya's article implies it wasn't very recent, and further theorises that it marked the end of Vampires & Maids in the outer world. When did Maids go out of fashion in France? At a guess, I'd say when the French Revolution got rid of aristocrasy (Napoleon's time) so... Maybe SDM moved to Gensokyo before the Sealing?
Assume Sakuya was already working under Remilia when the SDM moved. The Great Library could then have been tailor sized when Patchouli came to live with them, expanding as she wrote more books. Also, note that Sakuya isn't the only Maid in Gensokyo (Mugetu and Yumeko), yet they're all dressed like French Maids. I would assume that the SDM brought the French Maid fashion into Gensokyo and it became popular enough that even a Goddess (Shinki) would model her strongest creation as a Maid. -Psieye
- This would probably require Sakuya to be well over 100 years old, so gets into theories about her being 1. something other than human or 2. older than she claims as a result of time manipulation. Redpanda
- I personally am fairly convinced Sakuya has Lunarian blood in her (whether she's ever lived on the Moon is an entirely different and not-relevant-here question). Who knows how many years the celestial humanoids live without the Hourai Elixir?
- Well, I don't think there's any evidence Eirin ever drank it (although it might be a reasonable assumption.) Presumably the Lunarians age or die at some point though, or it wouldn't be forbidden. -7HS
- True, there is no evidence but I always assumed (and still do) that she drank it. Eirin wouldn't be someone to leave her Princess alone after she died. To serve her for all eternity~ -Psieye
- Well, I don't think there's any evidence Eirin ever drank it (although it might be a reasonable assumption.) Presumably the Lunarians age or die at some point though, or it wouldn't be forbidden. -7HS
- I personally am fairly convinced Sakuya has Lunarian blood in her (whether she's ever lived on the Moon is an entirely different and not-relevant-here question). Who knows how many years the celestial humanoids live without the Hourai Elixir?
Maribel Han in Changeability of Strange Dream saw the mansion on her dream-visit to Gensokyo, and apparently somewhere in Perfect Memento it's mentioned that her visit was hundreds of years prior to the present day (due to some sort of time slippage.) I should find where that was said though, currently I'm going off the Japanese TouhouWiki. -7HS
- The Gensokyo Timeline mentions it, but I don't know the source on that. Redpanda
Endless Fairy Maids
Given the above assumption that SDM was in Gensokyo from slightly before the Sealing, we can assume that any ordinary human Maids the SDM previously employed either died of old age or left before the SDM came here. Again assume that Sakuya was with them at this early time. Could it be that the Scarlet vampires wanted to recreate the atmosphere of having an array of Maid servants, thus didn't care what ability the fairies were when they 'recruited' them to be the next generation of Scarlet Maids? -Psieye
I thought it was odd that Sakuya's Perfect Momento page would describe the fairy maids as "The fairy maids are mostly useless" and "Cleaning their own shirts and making their own food is about the best they can do." If they're receiving free food (and uniforms) for doing nothing but picking up after themselves and sometimes uselessly dying at the hands of an intruder then it makes you wonder why they're even kept around. Just the food alone must be a huge expense for Remilia, who isn't exactly known for her generosity. Unless they somehow pay for and get their own food, maybe Remilia is really just paying to have company? Maybe Akyu was exaggerating in Perfect Momento? Redpanda
- My hypothesis is the Scarlet Devil Mansion probably has trouble recruiting anyone else. Humans hate and fear the Scarlet Devil too much to work for her, and youkai see maid work as below them; it's rare enough for them to hold any job at all, as Meiling does. While Sakuya can (and does) do all the work herself, Remilia still wanted an army of servants, and thus decided to employ a lot of useless fairies merely for the sake of appearances.
- Also, food and board is all they get. SDM maids receive no salary, this is mentioned in the help wanted ad in Bohemian Archive. Another reason why humans and youkai aren't interested in the job. -7HS
Actually, on the subject of 'endless'... do the fairies ever actually die when we shoot them? We can safely assume that all bosses are skilled enough to not die from a formal danmaku duel. But what of the fairies - death or unconsciousness? For that matter, where do fairies come from? Do they just get 'reincarnated' by Nature to replenish numbers? -Psieye
- It's specifically said in Perfect Memento that Faeries are essentially immortal. That is, they'll just come back. http://teruteru.mine.nu/summary.txt for source.